- So tell us a little bit about yourself, intro yourself, and your photography.
- Okay. Well, my name's Sandy, and I've been photographing since I was probably 13 years old. 12-13. Been still doing it now, mainly sort of a journalistic, sort of documentary style is what inspires me. I just like to tell people's stories through the lens if I can. So I'm a single mom with teenage boys and that sort of slowed down my work a little bit for a few years. I just really took photos for myself, but not professionally, but now they're a bit older I'm getting back into it, 'cause it's just always driven me. It's my love. And I try and do all sorts of other things, but when I do my photography, I just feel this is it. This is what I want to do. So, yeah. Yeah, started off in high school back in the days of dark rooms, and I was like, oh my God, this is so exciting! This picture just emerges and I was over the moon! And my father helped me convert this old caravan to a dark room. So I had a caravan set up in our backyard and just spent all my time processing negatives and watching those images appear. So, yeah, and then I left school at 15, and just headed off, and took photos all the time. I think I was very shy, so it was like this barrier between me and other people. When I was taking photos of them I found it much easier to relate to them than without that camera in front of me, yeah. So yeah, just covered around, and then I was a bit of an activist and I went down to the Franklin River campaign when I was a teenager, and it was pretty hard to get up there, and the conditions were bad, and I just was taking photos of everything that was happening there 'cause it was such a momentous time, I think, in Australian history. And I set up a dark room on a fishing boat actually. And so I was getting a lot of images 'cause it was hard for the media to get up there, or they'd only stay for a day or two. So I was already just starting to build up a body of work that was being published in magazines, and papers, and books. So didn't really have any formal training apart from a year. You couldn't do that now, I guess. It'd be harder to break into the field. Yeah, and then I just travelled a lot and I was actually riding my bicycle from Tasmania to Kent. I took off travelling with my cameras, and I got to Rockhampton, and I wanted to get some work. And I went to the Morning Bulletin, which was this like, daily newspaper there. And the guy said, this is, you know, would never happen nowadays. He said, right, get in the car with me, grab the camera. And we drove all around Rockhampton. Then he said, take a photo of that! Take a photo of that, out the window. And then we had to rush back and process it and print it. That was my job interview. And I got the job and I loved it, 'cause it was so, you know, you could be doing anything. You'd go and you didn't know what you were doing. You just had to take photos, and I kind of liked that pressure of having to produce, and haven't done that kept me on my toes. So that was probably the first newspaper job. Yep. And, want me to keep going? The next.
- Yeah, so, that led into you had a career as a photo journalist and internationally as well, is that right?
- Yeah. Yeah. I sort of then went and worked for a couple of weeklies in Sydney, but then I got a job with Greenpeace, actually as a crew member. But it was a crew member on one of their boats, but also as a photographer. So it meant that, because I love sailing and boats, so we sailed to Canada actually from New Zealand, and then the boat was used as a campaign tool. And so they needed a photographer to photograph all their directions, which was kind of a bit hairy and scary, but made for great photos. And at that time, you know, like there was once they were hanging the banner under the Golden Gate Bridge, and I was in boat underneath, and everyone was getting arrested, and I was trying to zoom out of the way in a Zodiac. And I remember I had all my gear in a barrel and I was completely drenched. And when someone gave me a lift to the Reuters office in the middle of San Francisco, and I remember going up the elevator just completely drenched with this barrel, saying, "All of these photos!" You know? All these protests about nuclear ships, and they were like, oh, mad woman. You know, but the photos were getting used everywhere at that point, going out on the wire services. That was in the days of AAP, such as was Reuters. So that was really good. And then I just stayed in San Francisco and connected up, The Age had a journalist working there, The Good Weekend Magazine, and I'd just come up with ideas and said, why don't we do this story on illegal migrants working in the, you know, whatever I was interested in. And he was like, okay. And so The Age started running those. And I know I worked there for about a year and then they just said one day, do you want a job full time? You can get back to Australia in a week or so. It was this incredible deadline. I was like, yes! This is what I want to do. I always wanted to work for either The Age or the Sydney Morning Herald. But, you know, pretty hard to get in.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- So, and that was just great. That was in the days of sort of a bit more long form journalism and you could come up with ideas and they'd let you go for a week. You know?
- [Tara] Yeah.
- Great idea. And can we go, you know, and you'd come back, and I remember one story was, you know, five front pages in a row on this big story. So it was really the opposite of what we're doing now in media. And I really liked that
- Yeah.
- Time that you'd spent on it. And yeah, it just felt like, you know, one day it could be photographing the prime minister and the next day and just photographing a flower or something for the data section. So it just taught you this incredible diversity, and also how to relate to people, you know?
- Yeah. What an incredible life. That's amazing.
- Yeah, it was great. And then, you know, it was tough too. We used to do 10 days shifts and night shifts in those days, and it was very male orientated when I came into it.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, it was hard, but it was also fantastic. And then Rwanda happened. I was sitting on night shift and I saw some of. We had this old, it's like an old fax machine and the pictures were wrapped around it, and they'd pop out. And these pictures were popping out from Rwanda, and I was like, what's going on? And I marched into the editor the next day and said, I think we need to go to Rwanda. And he was like, oh, can you assure me you'll be safe? So I ended up going in with World Vision and that sort of started this path of working with a lot of NGOs. And I managed to get to the position where I was part-time at The Age, so that I could do work with NGOs, like World Vision or the Fred Hollows Foundation. And I supply them with the photos they wanted, which was again, fantastic, like, sight restoration, I'd spend two weeks following, finding someone in the village that was blind and following their journey. And so you really getting in depth with the issue and doing things like child soldiers in Uganda, and child labour, and a lot of trips overseas, but then The Age, it was great. 'Cause I sort of let me go, but it meant they would get the images and the story at the end of it. So it was a really good situation. It's great actually. And yeah, just try to bear witness. And I was always, so I guess I felt really compelled to try and make people speak through an image. And I find that quite frustrating 'cause you photographing these sometimes really confronting things. And I was always driven by, I need people to look at this, and take action, or do something. So I was very much motivated by a desire for people to sort of bear, you know, with some of those more challenging assignments to, and some of them did. Like I remember being told some of the shots for World Vision they used in big, cinema rats. And they could track the money that was coming in or, you know? So, but no, okay, someone's helping out, you know, Fred Hollow's Foundation clinic somewhere in some remote place. You know, they have to see, but it was also about giving the people dignity, not sort of taking these pictures of, you know, like here are the people that are living in these parts of the world and things have happened to them, but also giving them that dignity and respect.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- Which often you need time to get to know those people before you even pick up the camera.
- A bit of trust there.
- Trust. Yeah. So it was incredible just meeting these extraordinary people. I've been such privilege, you know?
- [Tara] Yeah, it's amazing.
- There's so many countries and met these incredible people. There was an older woman who was completely blind. It was when Fred Hollow's Foundation first went to set up in South Africa, in Africa. And they went to this remote village where there was a lot of cataracts and a lot of blindness, but the people were very afraid of the operation. And I spent days with her saying, no, no, this is all right, you know? You'll get it done. But I just hung out with this old grandmother who was completely blind. And then I went into the hospital with her and she was chat, chat, chat the whole time in her language and stuff. And I asked one of the staff, what's she saying?
- [Tara] Yeah.
- And she had said that I was her, she was like a childminder for me. That I was a South African, growing up in South Africa, and she'd been my sort of childminder, and that I'd come back to help her out now she was. She just made this whole story up. Anyway, I didn't mind 'cause we couldn't communicate, but we became really close.
- [Tara] Yeah, maybe she voyeuristic.
- With her when her sight was restored. And it was just incredible because she sort of trusted me and those photos we used, that we used a lot by the woman. And then all these blind people just appeared out of nowhere. It was sort of like the middle of the Outback in Australia, saying we want ours done, you know? And that was the start of this, you know, eye surgery.
- [Tara] That's awesome. Really making a difference.
- Yeah, it just felt like, I don't know what you really do, but it's just a privilege to try and, you know, tell those stories, or take those photos to talk about something that's close to your heart. So, yeah.
- Yeah, well, I mean, that sort of takes a scene to Living Memory and your finalist work, "Hugs On Hold," which is, you know, close to a lot of people's hearts, obviously with the feedback we've got. Can you tell us a little bit about that photo?
- Yeah, well, I was, the interesting thing with the pandemic is, you know, since I've had kids I can't travel around the world anymore and do all these big assignments, but the pandemic has been interesting and COVID, because it's right here. It's right here in my community and it's just been very rewarding for me. So as soon as it became obvious that there was a global pandemic, I thought, well, I've got to bear witness to that. You know, that needs to be recorded. This is this incredible time in history. How can I do that? How can I be funded to do that? Because unless you working for, you know, one of the big newspapers, it's pretty hard to be funded as a photojournalist. So I applied for a Regional Arts Victoria Grant and the grant through their local shot. Just to document life in the time of COVID-19. And so I was usually working right here in my community, and when I was photographing, one woman she told me about her mom and how she couldn't go in. Her mum was in the aged care, Margaret.
- [Tara] Margaret.
- And I said, could I come and photograph you next time you go with your granddaughter to see your mom? And she's like, yeah, that's fine! So we went up just down the road here to the aged care. And I was completely stressing out because it's really hard to photograph some through a window.
- Yeah.
- And all of a sudden, Margaret, the grandmother she just saw her granddaughter and her eyes just lit up with this sort of love, and that human connection that's so important in times like this. Even though there was glass and a mirror and they couldn't touch, it was still that so important, that connection that those two, that granddaughter and grandmother had together. It almost didn't matter that there couldn't touch 'cause they were just looking at each other, and you know?
- [Tara] Yeah.
- Just really beautiful. So to me, it was just about, in fact, I didn't really liked the picture at first. I thought the reflections in it were a bit messy. That's not the sort of photo I'd normally like, and then I think someone else saw it and said, oh, you should put that one in the series. Which is interesting.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- That one's the one that seems to have got the most comments.
- Yeah, it's a very intimate moment that you've captured there. Like it's a, and then that reflecting on each other, the halo, like it's a really clever shot, so.
- Yeah. Thank you. It was good to, I went back to that aged care centre when the first vaccinations happened and I photographed mother again there as part of the ongoing series. So she quite liked, you know? She really loves. I made a big print when I was doing the print,
- [Tara] Yeah!
- So I had one and I've got that framed for her, and then we had a special ceremony to give it to her.
- Aw, that's so lovely.
- So for me, it's kind of special that I'm photographing this kind of worldwide event, but it's, and I'm being funded to do it, even though I don't work in newspapers anymore. And I've managed to get that funding. That's not easy.
- So many people related to that image and we're really drawn to it as well. Like, you know, it had that worldwide appeal as you know. With our in conversation with London and just.
- Yeah. Yeah, it seems to have captured people's, there's fields of mothers that I sort of feel it strong too that one seems to have. I think it's because of that barrier, you know? It's just, we're gonna look back on this think, we couldn't touch our loved ones or be near them and, it's really, when you stand back. That's been what's driven me with this, is how do you photograph this situation? Which, you know, we're living in it, we've lived in it for a year and a half, two years, and it's still so extraordinary, you know? We can't see our families and we have to meet through a glass and you know? So I'm driven now, but I'd never feel I can do it. I've never felt I can do that with all my photography. To try and take the photo that makes people go, oh, that's amazing. You know?
- Yeah. That's how, yeah, that's how I'm feeling. A lot of those photos make you think like, yes, I felt that. Or I identify with that. I understand that. That's my story.
- Yeah. It's sort of like this incredible moment in time, this sort of documenting history really. And I see it as important now I've got older. So that series has been purchased by the National Library, just as a record, you know? And I photographed some kids that at our high school when the first lockdown started and they said this beautiful quote. So I was getting just a few quotes to go with the photos. They said, you know, we're gonna be in a history book in 50 years. And the kids, you know, the year 11 kids are gonna be reading about us and what happened then. They could see that there was this time.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- That was so extraordinary. So, yeah. So, I feel really honoured. You know? It's great.
- And what do you think, like what do you, like with being hung in Living Memory, what do you think it means like, I guess for your photographic practise and career, and then personally as well?
- Oh, that's a hard question. It's a great honour. Of course it's a fantastic honour, you know, the National Portrait Gallery, I just wish I could go and see it.
- I know.
- And just meant that there's greater exposure around that photo, and maybe other work I've done, and to be up there with all those other incredible photographers that a lot of them I've admired for a long time, it's just makes me feel part of this community of other people doing what I'm trying to do, and that's special for me too.
- Yeah, that's priceless, right?
- Yeah, I just feel this great privilege really.
- Yeah.
- That was pretty exciting. Yeah. I guess everyone is.
- Yeah, everyone is.
- I get too excited too. I think I've told you, like I get so excited. It's like Tara lay off the coffee 'cause I'm like, I get really happy for everyone. So, yeah.
- Yeah.
- What about, how do you think lockdowns and the changes in the world have effected your practise? I mean, we've touched on it a bit already, but?
- I don't know. I think it hasn't really affected other than the obvious things like wearing a mask. And when I work in a hospital, you know, have to wear that full protective gear. And if you wear glasses, Yeah.
- And you've got the full face mask, then your face mask fogs up, your glasses fog up, and the back of your camera fogs up. I was like, I can't see!
- [Tara] Literally.
- I just was pretty much shooting as if I was blind. Actually on that day, one of those photos is now in New York at the International Centre For Photography, but they're doing it, like what you're doing, but a global.
- Oh wow. That's cool.
- And they picked from 6,000 images.
- Wow, that's amazing.
- And the photo, that time when I thought I couldn't see.
- You're like, it's in.
- That was the one that they picked. It wasn't the one that you picked. Yeah, so in terms of practicalities, I find it incredibly difficult shooting with a mask. And when I started doing life from the time of COVID, I was photographing people out on the driveways, so from a distance with a long lens.
- [Tara] Yeah. Yeah.
- Yeah, but it hasn't actually, well, I have an essential workers permit, so there's a lot more paperwork and I'm just working on a big shoot at the moment for Ashire on gender equity, and I've had to provide proof of, you know, double vaccination. So there's those things like that, but it hasn't affected the way I actually physically take photos, other than the fact that half the time I can't see. 'Cause my glasses are fogged up. So it makes me even more nervous that I'm not gonna be able to get. Be magic. Anyway, you seem to capture it anyway.
- Just the auto focus. Your finger on auto focus.
- What about, we know we always get asked by on social media and stuff as well about the photographers that get in, you know, what equipment do they use? What camera do they use? So what's your go-to selected equipment?
- Well, I've never been in a very sort of technical person, but when I worked at The Age, we kind of use Nikons and then we use Cannons, And when I left The Age, I think they swapped from Nikons to Canons, so I purchased a lot of the old Nikons So I used like a B3 body. Nikon B3, the wide angle lens. It's like a 17 to 35 mil, 80 to 200, and a macro lens. And that's basically all I ever have in my kit, plus a couple of fade lights. Little flash lights that I try not to use unless I have to. So when I was shooting in the hospital, it was horrible, fluorescent light. I might bounce a flash off the ceiling to try and get rid of that. And then I have a 300 mil lens. It's ancient. It's about 30 years old, but it's still beautiful. It's like an old, classic car.
- [Tara] Yeah, made to last.
- Yeah, they're made to last. They're 2.8. I keep thinking, you know, they're very expensive those lenses.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- But it works really well, but it's incredibly heavy, and so if I'm just trying to be a bit, you know? It's a different way of working. So I usually just have the little kit, then that's what I've used all the time and seems to work well. Yeah.
- And so what about tips for aspiring photographers? Do you have any tips?
- I think for me, it's about getting to know, because I interested in photographing people mainly. So it's about developing the relationship with the people or making those people feel comfortable with you. And sometimes that can take a while and sometimes it can be quick. So it's just about developing a relationship with someone and making them feel, trust you enough to take their image. And then what I try and do, 'cause I sorta, if I'm going to photograph someone, I want to figure out where I'm gonna put them before I've actually got them with me because it's a bit hard, you know, I get distracted if I'm trying to talk to them and think about the background, or the lighting. And so much of it, again, so I'll try and figure out if I can get there 10 minutes before then I'll try and find, oh, this spot, and just walk around, or turn around the corner and there's often somewhere a bit better than what I see first. In fact, the longer you spend on that, I find sometimes you can't do that, but if you have the luxury of time. And then the light, of course, you know, that's what photography's all about.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- So, yeah, that's crucial, being aware of it and how it falls on your subject, or too harsh, or soft, or. Speaking about it all the time. And it annoys me, 'cause everyone says, oh, we should do photos today. It's a sunny day. What? Oh, I hate sunny days. In photography.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- So, time, spending the time with the subject. So just always, if someone's interested, having a camera on you, I think. Like no use poking around and living your life and being interested in photography, then if you just always have it on you, then when you see that thing. I mean, people do that with mobile phones now. You can do it.
- [Tara] Yeah. Perfectly well. Just always going for it, taking it. Yeah.
- Cool. What about photographers or artists that you look up to, or that inspire you?
- Well, I think I'm a bit sort of old fashioned, traditionalist and I got motivated by some of the photographers like, Dorothea Lange. She was working in, she was sort of precursor to photojournalism, that beautiful sort of social documentary style of black and white photography, telling a story, you know? That beautiful photo, what's it called? "The Migrant Mother," where she's just this worn out mother, black and white, and her face says everything you could write about the Great Depression book. Pages and pages, but you look at that photo and it sums up that woman's life and the challenges. And I just thought her work was incredibly beautiful, and so descriptive of that period of time. And then there was another photographer in the seventies, he was Sebastião Salgado. He was a Brazilian, he's still alive, Brazilian photographer. Did this very gritty, sort of human toil, like the gold fields, the gold mines in Brazil. I don't know if you're familiar with his work, but it's incredibly strong.
- [Tara] I'll have to look it up.
- His work's amazing. He's published a lot of books and it's just very, instantly takes you into the subject of what's happening. So he, I was, you know, when I look at his work, I almost want to stop taking photos. I think he's so good! I think, I could never! He inspires inspires me. And I think when I was photographing a lot of things like child labour in India, and child soldiers, there was that, you know, he was trying to use these images to talk about this human condition, and that's what, I guess, inspired me. And then of course, you know, the classic, Henri Cartier-Bresson, with his beautiful, decisive moments. Street photography, and just capture that moment.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- And so probably, oh, there's so many, but the current photographers now I really like are, actually they're all photojournalists, or ex-photojournalists. There's Kate Geraghty the female photographer, obviously, at the Sydney Morning Herald, who's won so many awards, and beautiful work in Syria, and the fires, and very sensitive storyteller, and I really admire her work. And Nick Moore, who does beautiful work too. Yeah, sometimes when I look at their work, I think I just have to stop for awhile. He sort of does that, he takes photos of what I'm interested in, the sort of environmental, weather type things really beautifully. Tamara Dean who's work is exquisite. Really, really beautiful, sort of sensual, all about the light and very evocative. With that series she's done called, "Endangered." We can maybe take a look at.
- Yeah, it's amazing. And she's in the Living Memory with you.
- Yeah! Yeah. That's what I mean, it's just such an honour. I would of just sort of loved to have met all these people. That's what I was most excited about.
- Yeah. Everyone's been the same. Everyone is, 'cause we really sorta try and foster that connection with photographers, you know, we have the party and everyone has a chat and then has brekkie the next day.
- Yeah.
- And it's just talking shop really and making connections, and you know, some people meeting your heroes and other people, you know, people to mentor. It's incredible.
- Yeah, that's what I was most disappointed. 'Cause you sort of, I think that when I was working in newspapers, you know, you have this big community that you're bouncing ideas off of, but as a freelancer it can be a bit, you know?
- Yeah.
- You're not part of as much, so it would have been fantastic.
- Yeah. Hopefully we can still do something if the borders open. We just have to wait and see. In the hands of fate at the moment, unfortunately.
- Maybe a closing party.
- Yeah, well we're hoping that! To do like, a closing artist party, but we want to ensure that everyone can come like, you know, if Victoria is still in lockdown, or SA's still banning people from ACT. So we're really hoping. Otherwise we're just gonna have to have a big Zoom party, which will be messy I'm sure. That'll be challenging.
- Yeah. Can you remember the first photo you ever took? Do you have a conscious memory of the first photo you ever took?
- No! I don't. Actually, not the first photo.
- Or any photo, sort of back where you're like, oh, I like this, you know, this is.
- Yeah, there's some photos that have stood out to me that I liked. One was, so I was on assignment for the Fred Hollows Foundation photographing the sight restoration in the little village and I kept seeing these people that were like really incapacitated, and then I saw, I started talking to the people in the village and it was an area from where people who have been affected by Agent Orange. It was like second and third generation and they just simply concentrated in that area. And so I sort of went off tandem a little bit. I was still doing the Fred Hollows work that I went in to this village and I asked somebody if I could photograph. There was a man who needs about 30 in planting, basically. And that's where he completely twisted and his body didn't work, and his mother was looking after him, and it just kind of encapsulated to me the horror of what had happened. And then when I came back, I showed The Age and they ran it on the cover with a big story about, you know, Vietnam, 30 years on. This kind of hidden thing that was happening. And yeah, so that one to me, I felt like I was telling a story and people hopefully think about it through viewing that image. That one in particular felt like I did what I tried to do through my photography. And then another one I love, just 'cause it was a funny moment, was with World Vision. I was a little bit concerned about the sort of photos I had to take sometimes for them, and so one day we were in some incredibly poor place and all the kids were running around with one shoe or shoes with holes in them, and so I started photographing their shoes and their feet that had toes poking out everywhere and they all thought that was hilarious. To me that just sort of summed up. I just loved the photo. It was just nice.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- That's life and everything. So, yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, there was one from the pandemic of a young mother being swabbed for a COVID test and she'd lost her job. Her husband had lost a job and, you know, things were really bad, and this little girl was just looking up at her and something about that child's face of this strange world, you know? To me captured what was going on.
- Yeah.
- So, yeah. Yeah, there's been lots of photos of different things. One of my sons playing the violin.
- Yeah.
- What about a dream subject? If you could get anyone behind your camera?
- Oh, you know, I like the ordinary, everyday people. Just the people that are so humble doing incredible things. Like, part of this "Stories Of The Storm" series I'm doing at the moment, the head of the aged care centre. All the roads were blocked in White Town 'cause we had this terrible storm and we had to, you couldn't drive it in, or ambulances couldn't get in. Nobody could get in, but he wanted to get to his patients. And so he carried his bicycle over the through road, over all these piles of logs, and through and under, and just did this incredible thing. And he didn't really want me to take his photo and spend a lot of time talking to him, telling him I said that was important. And then we went out to the logs with his bicycle, and yeah, people like that. I just find it amazing. It's such an honour, you know?
- Yeah, people sharing a bit of themselves with you, right?
- Yeah, yeah. Trying to capture what it is they are, or what they've done. You feel very privileged to do that, or I do anyway. But I also get nervous because I like I've got to do this properly. Yeah. Yeah.
- What about any shout outs or thank yous?
- To?
- Anyone in general, like you were working on a grant, you said, I guess that's one to start, or your subjects, or fam, whoever you want.
- Oh, everybody for funding me to do the work. Everyone for allowing me to take their photos. Yeah. I mean, people like the gallery putting the work up, or Ballarat Photo Biannual is showing some stuff too, and it's just, yeah. Yeah, my kids for putting up with me when I come home. Tired from taking photos of them.
- That's very good.
- Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
- All right. Last one is, what would be your parting words of wisdom? Sandy's parting words of wisdom, can be about art, life, whatever you want.
- Oh.
- Any gems.
- That's a tough one. You've been pretty amazing the whole interview, so.
- Parting words of wisdom. Just live every day. Every day is so special, you know? And this pandemic has taught us all those things we take for granted, all those just ordinary moments of being with family, and community, and friends, and, you know, cherish those moments because that's what life's all about really, to me. And sometimes I think we just take it all for granted, and if anything comes out of this pandemic, I think it'll be to make us realise that those simple things are often the most important. To me anyway.
- Yeah, life is fleeting, right?
- Yeah. Yeah. Just those human connections, those, the way we are to each other, and we've got to stop stressing about the little things so much. Easier said than done of course.
